Wednesday, October 18, 2006

Signing Away Our Standards

There he goes again. With the stroke of pen, George Bush has usurped more power for himself.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, aka the “Unlimited Detention And Torture Bill,” will allow Bush to hold prisoners at his pleasure (“King George,” anyone?), extract information from them and try them with that questionable information, but with few legal rights.

We need to incarcerate terrorists; it’s hard to disagree with that. But we should also decide within a reasonable amount of time if we are going to try them, and on what charges. I’m not sure how not doing that protects us. Maybe, if we don’t find any damning evidence, it will give us time to make some shit up?

Now that those harsh interrogations are specifically permitted by our law, we will not have any grounds to complain when a US citizen is arrested overseas and is mistreated because it is that country’s law. Don’t tell me the State Department and the American Embassy wouldn’t object to an American citizen undergoing some of the same things that we put our war prisoners through.

A glaring problem with this law is, while we are maintaining the talking point that we do not torture, if we do not define what is permissible in an interrogation, then anything is.

Defining would mean having a “yes” and “no” list with specific acts/techniques named. Oh, and making that list public. Otherwise, you see, it seems like you’re trying to get away with something you shouldn’t.

As for trial, I think that on principle we should extend some basic legal rights to other human beings. That’s what I’d expect from a progressive nation that thinks so highly of itself. It doesn’t mean "baby" the accused. Try them with valid evidence, and if the fuckers are guilty, punish them.

It’s like beating a dead horse (not torture, because it's dead) to say that myself and others who oppose torture don’t love terrorists. I think they are misguided murderers. But I understand that torture and hypocrisy should never be considered American values. It’s ironic that we’re violating those in an alleged attempt to protect them.

I don’t know what that one bill that pushes Bush over into the absolute ruler column will be called, but I already have a suggestion: The “We Are All Bloody Fools” Bill.


Peaches said...

Who are the 'terrorists' now???

Depends on which side of the batton you are

Pete Bogs said...

indeed, and that is what so many people don't understand about this situation...

Jack K. said...

But I just want to be safe. I just want those nasty fuckers to pay. I don't care how they get the information, make them pay. We know they must be guilty, because they are not American.

bogs, you got the real name quite correct. ( “We Are All Bloody Fools” Bill.) I wonder how long it will take for it to come back to haunt us?

Too bad more folks don't realize that instead of encouraging them to become more like our idealized selves, we have become just like them.

Perhaps, after the next election we can move back to the US of A that we think we are.

Just some thoughts.

Hellpig said...

Why do you think "TERRORISTS" Deserve the same rights as Americans Bogs? Why do you support terrorists in Prison is a better question,these evil men are the followers of the bloodthirsty child raping false prophet (SATAN)
only thing they deserve is a bullet in the brain pan

You ever notice how Christians look up to heaven and pray while Muslims kneel down and bow towards hell when they pray,coincidental? no Muhammad was a servant of Satan(Satanic Verses) which were ommitted in the last interpretations of the unholy Qu'ran

Pete Bogs said...

hell - it's called the high road... no, they'd never give us the same rights, and I've said that myself... part of what makes us better than them is our "civilized" nature toward other people... we should stay above them... which should be easy, because, as you point out, they are face down much of the time...

punish the guilty, but make sure they are really guilty first...

Hellpig said...

These are not other people these are "TERRORISTS" and the conditions at club GITMO are better then the average american recieves in a Fed. Prison the interrogation practices are far worse for the average black car thief or Mexican rapist or white murderer at anywhere in the US to take the so called high-road with terrorists goes to show the insane ideology of the leftist appeasers

Pete Bogs said...

hell - I oppose stronghanded police interrogation, too... and cops killing copkillers who were "resisting arrest"

maybe I'll take that up in a future blog...

I agree terrorists aren't people, but they're not terrorists until they're found guilty on legit evidence... as in, not coerced!

Hellpig said...

The fact they were caught in a war zone fighting against US and Iraqi forces makes them quilty as hell,when armed w/ak47's doesn't sound like coersion to me,just the mere fact they landed in GITMO proves they are a threat to Americans.........last post getting on a plane 2morrow bound for Seattle a day early my replacement showed up early bless his heart....first thing I am going to buy is a anonimizer so I can post at TP have been banned twice maybe time for the latest alienware cpu I have been dreaming about for months

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

you guys neatly wrap everyone who disagrees with ya'll as fearful...jack's comment being the classic *snort*
yeah jack, that's it. us dolts out here willing to sign away our freedoms cause were cowering in the corners of our pens terrified of sheet draped mohammeds.

a problem at the door. and one in the house. 2 fronts. both need our attention.

the MCA is to allow the US to try EC's in a military format not the cilvian courts. that is better than basic bogs. you think terrorists should be afforded the same protocols as US citizens? if you go through our courts then the jihadis can kill off witnesses, bribe and weasel their way out of justice. and with willing enablers like lynn stewart the nimrod attorney of the deadly shake it would be a free for all. if that's a preview of how the left wants to handle it i say no thanks.

yeah i heard the hero dog story. gave his life for a kitty? its painful. but oh so true. did you see any rescue cats finding people in the rubble after earthquakes and tsunamis and terrorist plots that brought down towers? no.


K9 said...

/bark bark bark

what is TP?


Pete Bogs said...

hell - lots of people get arrested in police dragnets... like protesters getting arrested for civil disobedience, and passersby getting busted too just for being in the wrong place... your logic says they're guilty, too... but they aren't... that's why they get their day in court...

whereas, someone like Taliban John had been writing jihadist emails against the US... so fuck him... lol

k9 - I don't support the defender of the Blind Sheik... though I don't think 30 years (the max sentence she could have gotten)... I'd call her extreme left...

amen on the dogs thing... I used that same logic (their ability to help humans) in my anti-Chinese dog-eating post...

TP = Think Progress (or toilet paper) yeah, same thing, right? :-P

Sanford B. Hines said...

I do not trust any form of the US governtment anymore. I think there will be a revolution soon. There are not enoungh police and military to stop a insurgant group inside of the USA. I believe this will happen when voting is made illegal and the media is suppressed. This is happening in Russia. US and Russia are very nice friends. I truely believe the US consitution is near its end. It was a nice experiment while it lasted.

thanks Bush.

Hellpig said...

Bogs got time for one more Police Dragnets? don't see too many American police dragnets in Iraq or Afghanistan once again you are confusing terrorists with American civilians there is a difference Bogs no American Civilians are detained at GITMO it is a TERRORIST DETAINMENT CENTER...hello anyone home?

Hellpig said...

Dawg TP is where I go to infiltrate the enemy within to cause chaos and paranoia which is rampant over at that cesspool of hate and hypocrisy,but it's what I do.

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

grrrrrrherherhaha bogs.

hell: going over to TP to see if i can figure out who you are over there. hope you have a safe passage back to uruguay.


Jack K. said...

They are terrorists because they are incarcerated at Gitmo. There is no way of knowing how many of them are truly terrorists. But suppose they are to a man, terrorists. To treat them the way they treat others is making yourself no better than them.

In the words of a very intelligent police officer I roomed with at the FBI National Acacemy, "Don't try to get even with those who do you harm, get ahead. To get even you are sinking to their level and that is not a good place to be."

If our view of justice and the US Constitution mean anything, then we should not shrug it off because it is presumed to put us at a disadvantage. And isn't that the rationale given by the White House?

How much of the rationale given us by our elected leaders is rationale or rathionalization? Btw, I include all party affiliations in this comment.

Pete Bogs said...

hell - my point was that just because they were captured with a group of terrorists, that doesn't mean they are terrorists... hence the police dragnet/demonstration example...

k9 - isn't that a passage to India?

jack - what you said!

Bird said...

even a terrorist is a person, a human being.

maybe a misguided, ignorant, black-and-white thinking, hatefilled human-being, but a human-being nonetheless.

when we treat people as non-humans, we become inhuman.

we want to spread democracy to the world, do we not?

then we must behave in a democratic fashion - we must apply our ethics and ideals to every aspect of our conduct.

so, let's put the "terrorists" in prsion, but let's do it in an ethical manner that is in keeping with our democratic ideals.

we can have our cake and eat it too you know.

steinbeck wrote a wonderful book, Down the Moon, which speaks to this isue. the novel tells the story of an army that takes over a country and commits crimes against the citizens in order to conquer and control. Steinbeck portrays that invading, conquering army as humans - not creating sympathy for them (for they are the villans) but an understanding that even soliders, oppressors, concqueres - NAZIS,are human and their behaviors impact them too. the book is a message - that even in defense, one must still behave nobly (and didn't we come to that conclusion at the nuremburg trials - that even in war - one must still behave with some vestige of human dignity and nobility?). The resistance movement in Europe embraced this book - many risked their necks to publish and distribute it in German-occupied territory - because the book spoke in many ways of our better angels and upheld the ideals which free people cling to.

america banned the book. and trash-talked steinbeck for his efforts.

we should be better than that - then and now - we should be better. how great is our democracy if the only way we can defend it is with torture and lies and oppression? not so great i think.

of course, if the entire world woud just stop right now and turn its undivided attention to baseball - all our problems would be solved! (go mets! - couldn't resist - i want a 7th game in this series!)

Hellpig said...

I actually agree with you Bird that is with sports "GO METS"

Jack K. said...

bird, I totally agree with you, Mets included.

This view is what separates the liberals from conservatives. It has something to do with a mind open to different ideas and ideals.

However, liberals can be hoisted on their own pitard.

It is a caution.

bird, didn't you say something about having to grade papers? lol

I bet there will be a different viewpoint rendered soon.

Bird said...

hell pig! you saucy, sweet shoat, you darlin' pigsy-wigsy of my dreams:

we agree on something!

champaigne and confetti all the way around (ok, a round of good stout beer for all -bogs - what do you suggest?)

if the pig and I can agree, then why can't we all have....



infinitesimal said...

come point and laugh at my post... only the first one is actually serious...

maybe if we made the president into a weekly reality show?
then people would take interest.

"Oh I KNOW he di-in't!!"

you know what I'm sayin??

infinitesimal said...

I thought TP was talking points??

Sanford B. Hines said...

Fuck Bush. He is tourcher. Tourcher. Fuck Him the Tourcher. Fuck him. Toucher.

Nuclear warfare will save earth. Humans will die out. I cannt wait for that moment of new life for earth. Fuck humans. Humans kill Humans. Just fuck it all!

Thanks you>

Bird said...


here piggy piggy -

let's go get drunk.

mets lost.


so, is it motown city or st. looey?

(sorry bogs -but hell doesn't seem to have a blog anymore so i gotta pester him here)

Reverend X said...

Wha's up? The bill that gives W absolute power was the Military Commissions Act. With no Habeus Corpus, the Bil of Rights is meaningless. Bush has shown his willingness to act outside of Constitution. He has defied court orders and bragged about it. Thanks to decades of movies and TV shows dep;icting the hero as a tough, won't play by the rules man on a mission, Americans have come worship that type of behavior.

There is asolutely no good reason to try alledged terrorists in any way other than the process put forth in the Constitution. Our Judicial system has been able to convict more people for their crimes than any other country. We have 25% of all the prisoners in the world, in our jails. Trying a person for their crimes is not codling or being soft. If the govt has the evidence, present it and allow the accused to defend himself. The only reason the govt. would not want to make the evidence public would be that it is half assed evidence due to their half assed investigation. I. myself, am worried cuz we are all just a half assed error away from life sentences...

Pete Bogs said...

rev - word!