Tuesday, April 04, 2006

To Beatify Or Not To Beatify

That is the question some Catholics want answered with the affirmative, and soon. And they may get their wish any day now.

So revered was the late Pope John Paul II, who died just over a year ago, that his successor waived the usual five-year cooling-off period and put him on the fast-track to sainthood.

I don’t understand the hurry. What does sainthood mean to the deceased, a better seat in heaven?

The fervor with which some Catholics celebrate this man is pure idol worship, but Catholics have never shied away from idolatry or iconolatry.

The path to sainthood involves an investigation into miracles that can (somehow) be attributed to the candidate. Let’s just say the burden of proof for that is very light.

You had a headache on the day of JP II’s death, and felt better the next day: A miracle! It’s a stretch, but popular demand is a powerful motivator within the Catholic church.

JP II presided over the biggest of the big Christian religions, one whose tenets have little basis in the Bible (sacraments, sainthood, etc.), are often fallacious (celibacy of the clergy was originally a church land inheritance issue, not a spiritual one), and are dangerously archaic (contraceptives forbidden in the time of AIDS, overpopulation, etc.).

But while many of America’s prominent religious leaders are warmongers, some of whom extol the virtues of assassination, JP II was a lifelong peace advocate. He deserves props for that.

If JP II's face-to-face admonishment of President Bush over Iraq had led to any changes in the war strategy, it would've indeed been a verifiable miracle, and I would've personally campaigned for his sainthood while he was still around.



Bird said...

grrr. (i am morphing from a bird into a dog) grrrr. grrr.

why the hell doesn't this saintly pope (god rest his soul) perform a post-mortem miracle and stop this
f%^&ing rain!? (Yes, another soaking wet day here and my feathers haven't dried out from yesterday).

Ok. Sorry. To the point:
I believe in miracles and frankly, I need a miracle every day (ala the Grateful Dead - sing along now folks). I think strange, unbelievable and inexplicable things happen all the time. I don't know if such things are the result of saintly or divine intervention - nor do I care, though it would be nice to know to whom to address thanks.

Catholocism is a mystery religion. if in the infinitely mysterious wisdom of THE CHURCH, they want to beautify JP, I say, go for it. Makes no matter to me.

I do like that idolatry part of the church though. I still have my little medal of the Blessed Virgin Mary which was gifted to me after receiving my FIRST COMMUNION. rumor has it, i could commit a triple ax murder then die without receiving the last rights, and if i have that medal on me, i can go straight to the pearly gates - that's how much power VM has. She rocks!

Hahahah - to clarify though, I parted ways with the Catholic church decades ago. I am a heathen, or perhaps a pagan, or maybe I just "spiritual." Lord only knows!

Bird said...

oh lord - i need some divine intervention for those homonyms -


the english teach is embarrassed.

Pete Bogs said...

bird - if your unshure about a spelling, axe someone at the lyeberry... ;-)

I do believe strange, inexplicable things happen... and I don't care if they make JP II a saint - doesn't impact me one way or another... but to think you can attribute a given act to a given dead person is ridiculous... it's not like he leaves his mark on his miracles, a la Zorro!

I refer to myself as a "refugee" from the Catholic church... as I write I am also figuring out how to explain to my Catholic father why I won't be attending his fourth wedding... I do not relish my history with the church...

liberalbanana said...

OOH - did you see the article stating that regular churchgoers live longer?? Check it out. You should write a post about this crap!

Pete Bogs said...

I could write a blog about that, but I have to get to church - FAST!!! ;-)

Bird said...

bogs, so i'm curious- do you not want to attend your father's 4th wedding BECAUSE it's in the catholic church? why let that stop you? (none of my beeswax of course - and no judgement here. we all do what we gotta do at any given time. took me YEARS to get over being a catholic - hahaha! )

what's this study that churchgoers live longer? it's possible. church (or for that matter, any organized religion - temple, synogogue, etc.) might lengthen life - as it provides people with guiding principles for their lives and a community which supports them (ok - so organized religion in its' best sense). that can be a big plus psychologically, emotionally.

oh, and bi the wey bogs - i is a teecher - i dunt need no stinkin lieberry. i am fullie litrite.

Pete Bogs said...

bird - it's the result of a annulment of his marriage to my mother... I disagree with the whole concept... not divorce, but annulment... secondary reason is I don't want to go to the church...

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

hatin on idolatry? what, from the one that idolizes the clooney mfume dat blew me? so much so that you wanna be havin' his baby? /howl

you are right, as an anti-catholic why should you care who is or isnt a saint?

(example: I am not the least bit concerned about how far along Tom Cruise is on removing thetan souls over at his science fiction church.)

and as for your Dad's 4th? don't confuse the "werd" with its corrupt practitioners on earth. just sayin'.

miracles are other people coming to your aid at the right time. or synchronicities. or finchies. burning bushes are metaphors. don't look for them.


Ben said...

Have not done this before but this whole discussion about church and belief systems is just too tasty. So...

In January I have posted my two cents on common belief systems and I'd like you to read it. Blatant advertising? Damn right. Please, be my guest at:


Pete Bogs said...

k9 - as basically a humanist, the notion of idolatry being sinful for me is moot... whereas, the golden calf...

I agree on your definition of miracles...

ben - that's good stuff... I've touched on it a few times before, too... I wanted to at least give JP II credit for his good qualities, which are lacking in many other prominent religious figures... as part of the military-industrial complex, and masters of fear, they have everything to gain from warfare...

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

no the libs are the masters of fear.

JP2 was a good man. that is enough these days. thanks for acknowledging it bogs.

Now, onto other business: miss liberal -Irritated-Bitter, Move-the-Hell-Out-of-the-Way-Before-I-Whip-Out-My-Effing-iPod-Earbuds-and- Beat-You-With-Them banana:

you write about "crap", girl? you've defined it! by moderating commentary at your blog. everything subject to your approval? that structure is the antithesis of "liberal".

/golden warm pilar alert



Pete Bogs said...

I initially had word verification on my blog because of spam I was getting... I don't agree with screening comments on sites - there are legit reasons for doing so, such as on these "Smith" family blogs - but I don't tell anyone else how to run their sites either... I chose Libana (Liberal Babana) for Fragmentia 13 based on her content and overall "concept," which I find of interest...

btw, if you leave any pillars, please use one of those garbage-bag-glove things to remove it... thanks!

K9 said...

/bark bark bark

i realize you aren't responsible for banana girl.

if she's gonna write like a badass then i say "follow through girlfren". i am writing about it here Bogs, where she cant CONTROL it. Helly said the same thing at F13.

what was that? ya'll always talking bout fear?

hey bogs, no pilars on lawns of those who give aid and comfort to finchies. and, I will remove the kitties as well.


Pete Bogs said...

Finchy thanks you... btw, I've updated that post with a second picture...

Hellpig said...

Any Religion that allows the consumption of pork can't be all bad,Although the Catholics and contraception is an issue with me,Americans should be taxed for having more then 3 children,Illegal Aliens should be charged triple,per year!!

Pete Bogs said...

hell - a child limit? you're sounding a bit like a commie now...

Jack K. said...

Bird, just say thanks, the message will be delivered to the appropriate office.

an, english teecher mus no how to spell judg(e)ment. tee hee, lol

Pete, I see mr. mous, i.e., A. Nonny Mous visited a couple of times.

Aunty Belle said...

Whoa, Bawgs....honey, now...youse raisin' mah suspicions --youse jes' tryin' to get ole Aunty B to lay it out fer yer rather than admit youse the kind o' kid that skipped out on yer catechism lessons?? (Tha's Sunday School iffin' yore Protestant) Or youse testin' me to see if I can remember mah own learnin'? Youse jes' heavin' ole Aunty B into that famous Briar Patch, ain't ya' babe?

Tsk, tsk.

From the top--youse right--no need to rush to canonization. Let the process proceed at normmal pace.

The teaching of the Church is that saints is VENERATED, not idolized--admirin' a saint ain't idolatry any more than your admiration for the inventor of Guinness--youse appreciative of his effort but you ain't idolizin' him. Some of us is appreciative of the efforts of saints, thas' all.

Next, sweet potato, the cause for sainthood and the miracles required is hardly a "light" burden of proof...didn't yer 'member that post on Devil's Advocate?? Looky, if what youse saying were true, that a headache recovery is all it takes, why puddin' there'd be no need for canonization---youse knowin' that, but youse tryin' ter be hilarious, ain't'cha? JP II is sainlty enough ter forgive ya'. Doan you know it was JP II who sent ya that finch and his lady? Want a JP II mini miracle--jes' ask him to help you figure it out--and mean it of course--and see what happens is a year or so.

Now this heah is the part yer in deep water on--you KNOW that the tenets of Catholicism is FOR SURE in the bible.

(BTW the Church is how you even got a bible in the first place--who you think decided what was scripture and what was looky-likes that was vying for a piece of the pie--ever heard of simony? Simon MAgus tried to buy the power he saw the aspotles had--plenty others wrote their own versions of the "gospel" so as to get somethin' goin' for theyselves.).

You say the sacraments aren't in the bible? Chile--what does "go ye into all the world and make disciples of men, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" sound like to you? Sounds like baptism to me---and take a peek at Matthew 3:6 too. One sacrament accounted for in scripture--not made up by that mean ole' medieval Church.

Well, mah goodness, let's look at confession, that quintissential Catholic thing: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8) and God alone forgives sin,1 John 1:9-10 says, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

And then He delegated that job in John 20:22-23 "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’” THus we see in Acts 19:18 "Many of those who were believers now also came confessing and divulging their practices..."

Seems to me pretty clear that the sacraments is fer shur in the bible.

Celibacy ain't no invention of the Middle Ages or the Church. Jes' check out this scripture passage which shows celibacy ain't an inheritance issue but is in fact spritual, since Jesus Himself said "...there are celibates who have made themselves celibate for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this (teaching) let him receive it."
(Matthew 19:12).

Now for sure celibacy is a discipline--it ain't dogma. Here's what St. Paul said (in the bible);
"He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. " So celibacy is better iffin' youse called to the priesthood.

All the same, they's married priests ya know--in the Eastern Rites (note to Bird...oops I see she got it already) but their bishops is only celibate--and some Anglican priests who're married but convert & who want to be Catholic priests...but it is better to be celibate if youse a priest--they's a long theological reason, but I'll spare ya'.

What else, oh yeah, contraceptives and overpopulation--well, I'll get to those one day on the Porch.

Meanwhile...I bet for the price of a couple of stouts yer sure to find a paperback Catechism of the Catholic Church so the next time you want to pontificate, Bawgs, youse can do it wif some modicum of accuracy and not be showin' us all how many times you slept when youse s'posed to have been coloring your bible stories, puddin'.

The irritatin' reality is that much of Catholcism in America is too americanized-- folks think they can vote on what's a sin or not...democracy ain;t the right format fore evr'y human interaction ya' see? Ain't no democracy on the basketball court--youse got to be tall and fast you cain't demand they change the rules so short slow gils can play wif the Knicks. Nothin' againt short slow girls, it's jes' that it won't accomplish the goal--making baskets more'n the other team.

So....no democracy in the Church --doan like the teachin's? youse free to reject 'em and make yore own rules---thas' fine...but those folks that wanna come in and change the thang to look like sompin' entirely different is hypocrites--they can go start they own street corner religion.

About yore pa and annulments--yeah, I'm wif ya. Doan go to it. Send Pa a card with a message, "Pa, congratualtions one more time. I hope you get everythang yer deservin' in life."

Disgustin' to have the flaccid US bishops hand out annulments like lollipops when the Vatican done tole 'em to cease and desist.

Too bad we doan REALLY have them dungeons some folks talk about so we could throw your ole Bishop Lynch right on in thar. I'd eat the key iffin' it keep that fake under the earth.

Oops, mah charity jes' went south. Sorry. Best thang, sugar is to say a prayer for Dad and skip the fake nuptials. When I jes' cain't pray for someone--like Lynch--I delegates that unpleasant task to mah guardian angel.

Ya'll realise I done this whole post wifout any chocolate at all??!!! (done gave it up fer Lent...along wif wine which ain't that tough to give up.)

Hellpig said...

So be it,If that what it takes to keep all the Illegal Aliens from popping out 8 to 10 kids each,and over burdening our already bankrupt social welfare system.

Aunty Belle said...

Naw, Hail -pig, that won't git it done--they jes' have them babies on their side of the line then brang 'em over heah.

Pete Bogs said...

wow, a really long lecture on Catholicism… that’s one of the reasons I left the fold, Aunt B… I do idolize some people, but there’s no sin where I’m concerned… it’s not against my beliefs… the sacraments don’t exist in the form they’ve been given by Catholics… I have catechism and did open it once or twice… I found it a confusing document with little relation to the real world… in Shakespearean terms it was full of sound and fury, but signified nothing… it was Handel’s Messiah – all style and no substance…

I don’t post these things to get you all hot under the collar, Aunt B… I do it to purge old demons… in a manner of speaking…

Bird said...

i say we have a party, roast a fatted calf until it's golden brown, drink lots of good stuff, shake, rattle, and roll, dance a lot (holding pictures of whomever we wish to "idol") and sing praise and hosannas to ....


it has come out this afternoon.(a brief appearance in between storms).i am not a generic pagan or heathen after all - i am a sun worshipper - at least i would like to be if the SUN would come out long enough for full services.

bogs- now is see your predicament. if your parents' marriage was anulled, then that makes you (oh, dear I can't say the word ) well you're either that, or there has been a miracle and another immaculate conception. hey - you could be the second messiah!!!! way cool!let's start a bogs religion.

my parting with the catholic church came the day i sat in church with a girlfriend and her family and listened to the priest give a sermon about how evil and wrong people were who got divorced. i got up and left. i was 13 or so and my parents' divorce at that time was about 4 months old. i figured i'd honor my mother and father over the arrogant, judgemental (oh dear jack, did i spell it right) priest any day. (spelling is a proofing skill, as you all know by now, i don't proof my comments - oh so obivous - eh?)

only time i go to any church now is for funerals, rosaries, and weddings - and only as required. shortly after 9/11, i went to a synogogue for friday shabbat services with a friend to the synogogue - it felt more peaceful and safe there,and i actually enjoy the shabbat services over mass.other times i need to commune with god, i do so at the beach. i also periodically discuss matters with the lord when i'm driving or sitting on my balcony.

i suppose i idolize the Virgin Mary - i light votive candles to her. but she is really not just VM, she is the Mother Goddess and the church looked away(and often purposefully encourgaed her worship) in order to bring goddess worshippers into the fold.

i adapted a catholic prayer to suit my goddess worship. you may recognize it:

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The goddess is thee.
Bless are though and
blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Holy Mary, Goddess Mother,
watch over and protect us.

Why use VM as an intermediary (as the original prayer does) when she rocks on her own?

so bogs - should we worship you as the second coming? haha! we could drink guiness while we ate that golden calf.

i apologize if my flippant remarks about anullments have stuck a sour chord....i may be out of line...if so, please take me to task.

Bird said...

see what i mean about proofing?

"blessed art thou" is what i meant.

hmmm...maybe i should start proofing my comments.

Pete Bogs said...

I am no bastard, if that is what you are alluding to... supposedly the church doesn't see children of annulment that way anymore... but here's the thing - I don't care what the church thinks of me... my disagreement is over a rubber stamp annulment based on the very thinnest of criteria... it's like the Iraq war, only on a personal level... my mother deserves more consideration than that...

to your other comments - I learned about dropping the "e" in judgment the hard way... on a college exam... we all type our comments as we are thinking them, and though I often give them a look over before I hit send, but that's just me being anal...

I've never thought about starting my own religion... there's something too Koreshian about the idea, though I understand the sex was good... any guy who can convince women to abstain with their husbands and be with him... wow... that power corrupts people, as Messrs Jones, Koresh and others have shown us...

I've definitely thought about starting my own political party, though... many times...

Aunty Belle said...

Bawgs, mah pet, Ole' Aunty ain't even close to hot under the collar. Rather entertained and happy for the foil.

A small point: sacraments is like gravity--they work whether you believe in 'em or not.

Purging demons are you? Purge on in peace. And, no, annulments doan make children illegitimate--that is a legal term, not a spritual term. All that an annulment is supposed to mean is that there was no valid sacramental (as opposed to legal) bond in the first place. Usually for one of three reasons: marriage under duress; incapable of making a serious decision about marriage (depressed, immature, etc.) or material information about the spouse was withheld (she /he had history of being at Bellview) and thus you did not have sufficient knowledge on which to base your decison to marry.

Bird, lovely sprite of the air, if youse through with the rain, can ya blows us some heah in Florida--we's about to have a drought.

ffff said...

"Give me a child till he is seven and he is ours for life"- Jesuits???
I dunno I just think even when you are no longer Catholic there still seems to be this hold over you. (NO I never was, just most of my friends).
I don't believe in 'miracles', I believe in being lazy and not noticing wonderous stuff... but attributing things to a dead person is very sad. Better we concentrate on attributing good things to people whilst they are still alive.

Whether they beatify or not is not important except to those who care. So that is ok.
I agree. Pity the miracle could not have happened that all war ceased and the idiotic warmongers (Bush,Blair and Howard included) were not struck down with the pox..or maybe just a touch of starvation... that might make them re-align their priorities.

Any 'leadership' that not only allows but encourages death because of a ban of a little rubber thing to be worn on the willy does not deserve cake in heaven!

Cor! I could and do go on.

Aunty Belle said...

Where is Contessa? Ain't seen her in a spell...

Aunty Belle said...

Alison thinks,
"I dunno I just think even when you are no longer Catholic there still seems to be this hold over you."

Sure--they's been baptised, mystically marked for God who is they Daddy and He wants 'em home wif Him...when they's ready.

Bird said...

as one of those who is an ex-catholic, i don't think the hold is from the father god. it's from some of the more twisted, less-rational, less-acceptable traumas that organized religion can cause (like telling a child her parents are evil because they're divorced). i suspect god doesn't think that way at all.nor do i think god cares one way or the other about baptism and communion. those are trappings created by man, not god.

but then,i am talking about my god, who is, no doubt, quite different from the god of others.

i am perturbed (ok, royally pissed off) by the assumption that one's religious view applies to others - and aunty belle - i feel your last comment makes that kind of assumption. excuse me, but as an ex-catholic, who was baptized - no, no, no i have not been "mystically marked by god" nor is he my Daddy waiting for me to join him. my parents made the devision to have me baptized in the catholic church - and i don't hold it against them, but the act itself holds no magical or mystical power over me. in matters of faith I get to choose - there is no one, absolute way to believe! And no one else has the right to say what my experience is or make assumptions about it!!!!!

Zya said...

You changed pictures!

You do listen to your fans, don't you? ;) But where's the easter theme? Hmmph ;)

Aunty Belle said...

Now now, lovely Bird jewel of the air, Aunty Belle ain't makin' no assumptions 'bout YOU or YOUR religious views a'tall. Not applying my views to any others on this here blogworld.

I made "assumptions" about GOD's Views--not yours: It's God's views of mankind (That mankind is God's children, and He's they Daddy and He wants them home wif Him)thas' the topic of my remarks.

Doan take no offense, feathered one, 'cause what I assumed 'bout God's views toward mankind leaves you fully in control of yore religious "choice" ...whatever you find most compelling.

As for your comment that "nor do i think god cares one way or the other about baptism and communion. those are trappings created by man, not god." Well, I hate to assume anything on your account, so let me ask ya', are you saying you doan believe in the scriptures? If you doan, tha's fine...jes' checkin', 'cause the bible says God *does* care about baptism and communion ("unless you eat of My flesh and drink of My blood ye shall not have life within you")

Ain't ya'll weary of this religious talk? Wish't I could get a rise outa ya'll over the Terminator Terror over on the Front Porch, since it is an immediate threat and a less speculative endeavor than all this afterlife rumination.

Pete Bogs said...

ali - I agree that it sticks with you... I haven't been Catholic in almost 24 years and I'm still (obviously) bitter!

Aunt B - sounds like God is a cannibal, with all that flesh and blood stuff... or at least, He's encouraging cannibalism... Contessa doesn't come around much anymore... was it something I said?

bird - I have a few early Catholic traumas that I will share sometime... no, no pedophile priests... but, we got off on the wrong foot, the faith and I...

zya - I am still working on the bunny suit...

Aunty Belle said...

Bawgs, I doan recall nuthin' you said that was hurtful --hopin' Contessa Infinitessima is OK...and Rev has disappeared unless he is the anonymous hanging 'round at Revenge.

Thane said...

There was this guy named Jesus. Those who hated him didn't take the time to listen to him talk, or listen to his message. They mocked him, whipped him, and put him to death because they thought he was a threat to their style of living (I'm talking the Pharisees and Jewish leaders.)

Okay, everyone is entitled to have an opinion. But, I think ppl look foolish when they give an opinion without ever taking the time to talk to someone who could give honest answers.

It's okay to bash a Catholic. But, I would suggest not being a Pharisee... take the time to talk to someone you 'assume' is bad. Talk to a Muslim. Talk to a Catholic. Talk to a Jew. Talk to someone who has a different doctrine than yours. You might be surprised to learn that they are human beings, and that the things you mock are things that have been taken out of context and twisted by others who have also never bothered to ask 'why do you do that?'.

Hmmm... as to the "well, I should know because I was once Catholic" line of thought? Well, were you an American Catholic, raised in a post-Vatican II society? I've found that most folks over the age of 40 don't really know 'why Catholics do that'... because it just isn't taught anymore. Those poor young people have to actually hunt for answers, because things got shuffled around and doctrine isn't taught at fully as it once was. It left large, gaping holes, and caused too much confusion, IMHO.

Pete Bogs said...

from the Crusades on down to a treaty with the Nazis and rampant child sexual abuse, I don't need any excuses to criticize the Catholic church... I've experienced it firsthand, and when I don't know all the reasons behind one of their doctrines, it means I don't care... it's stupid anyway...