Wednesday, March 29, 2006

Reservations For An Abortion

You may have gotten the idea from the recently passed abortion ban in South Dakota that the state has been a veritable zygote slaughterhouse until now.

Or maybe you already knew that the state has but a single “abortion clinic” in operation.

I didn’t, until yesterday.

While that Planned Parenthood clinic will go out of business when the ban takes effect on July 1, barring court intervention, one or more other similar clinics may open after that date.

This is because Cecilia Fire Thunder, a – you guessed it from her name – Native American who’s President of South Dakota’s Oglala Sioux people, has proposed opening a clinic on the tribe’s land.

Yup, the tribe’s sovereignty, the same that allows Native American tribes to operate casinos in otherwise gambling-free states, may enable them to open a women’s health facility that performs abortions.

There are seven other tribes in the state, by the way.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if, because of the abortion ban, more women's clinics open up in South Dakota?

Be careful what you wish for, Governor Rounds.


Jack K. said...

Congratulations to Cecilia Fire Thunder and the Oglala Sioux. It will be interesting to see how the Bureau of Indian Affairs will respond as well as the US Congress.

Is it possible that the soul doesn't attach until the time of birth? If so, what does that say about the forming body? Is it a person yet? Is being ensouled the true test of being human? If so, how does that fit into the arguments both anit- and pro-abortion?

Just thought I'd ask.

Pete Bogs said...

I don't know about the soul, but I bet Aunt B has quite a bit to say about this particular issue... I don't think life begins at conception, but it also begins well before birth... perhaps that's when a soul begins, too...

infinitesimal said...

Wow, this ain't gonna be good for the already rampant prejudice they endure. But you have to take a stand somewhere.

Most women in the tribe will not opt for abortion I would wager, but the ones who have been incest victems and rape victims probably will.

And just who do you think a percentage of the rapists are? White S. Dakota menfolk rednecks, that's who.

Goodmorning BTW

Bird said...

about the matter of a soul -

this to me is a matter of faith - not fact. one of the complications of the whole abortion debate.

does life begin at conception? i think that's a scientific issue- andit depends on what your definition of "life" is (I sound like Clinton, huh?). at what point does the embriyo (sp) develop conciousness? at what point can it survive on its own? when does it fully develop the nervous system, etc. is the egg "life"? is the sperm? scientifically, they are organisms (which implies life.

an embryio (sp)is a physically growing and living organism from the point of conception. that doesn't mean it has a life as a sentient, human being.that doesnt mean it takes primacy over its host. and neither does a fetus.

for me, it comes down to this: life is a great gift. depending on your point of view, women are fortunate or unfortunate in that we are capable of bestowing that gift. but the gift must be freely given - therefore, it must be the woman's decision to bestow that gift. the woman, and only the woman, has the right to decide.

Pete Bogs said...

infini - good morning... the woman who wants to open these clinics states that Native American women will suffer the most without them, as the incidence of unplanned pregnancies is high... and she points out that the proponents of the new law are white males...

bird - I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky... however, I did get some long overdue mouth whoopee...

your use of the word "host" is a little unsettling, as it connotes parasitism... but I get what you mean...

Bird said...

oh dear! i didn't mean host as in a parasitic relationship, but host as in well, a good host - a giving, generous, gracious host. when i choose to bear a child, i am offering that being a home in my womb - but of course, i am more than a host then - i am a mom.

one must choose to be a mom - it shouldn't be forced upon you.

Giggles said...

The predominate view in the Christian faith (and all the way back to Socrates), was that the soul entered the fetus when "quickening" began -- that is when movement was detected from the fetus. Prior to that, abortion was considered therapeutic and condoned by the church fathers and ancient physicians.

ardlair said...


I don't know what the Native American approach to abortion was in the days when they did rule the land....maybe somebody else does.

But overall, this is a complex religious, moral,scientific,ethical,financial,societal,
cultural, issue. And thats an understatement.

However, you have to be pragmatic.

I am not aware of any society which has reduced the abortion rate to zero by introducing anti-abortion legislation.

In otherwords, abortion will continue whatever the law says, for as long as the social circumstances exist to propagate unplanned or unwanted conception, and people have the right to individual self-determination.

So if you ban it. It goes on. But now it's in the back bathrooms of small houses ; knitting needles inserted into the os cervix; bits of babies flushed down the pan.

Maybe a few of those images - rather than those produced by those who rake the dustbins of abortion clinics - would help bring some balance to the discussion.

Legal is not necessarily moral; illegal not necessarily immoral.
There are limits to personal autonomy.
But banning abortion doesn't get rid of it.
Just makes a few people feel a bit better, and a few a lot worse.

Pete Bogs said...

thanks, ard... and I think not only does the issue of what people will do without legal abortion need to be considered, but the overall issue of birth control... some faiths are against it... some cultures have taboos or myths about it... we have the Plan B "morning after" pill issue here, where the FDA has stalled on approving it for OTC use - for political, not health reasons... the point is - good birth control practices minimize the number of pregnancies to be terminated in the first place...

Aunty Belle said...

Fer some reason I feels like this here topic is thrown our fer bait---an' Aunty Belle jes' comes and takes a chomp..

Looky folks, when youse get goin' on a topic thas' shur to get the foam up, ain't it a good plan to start with the basics?

One of the definitions of life is that it is growin' according to the rules of the species. So, fer mah buck, conception is new life--it 's growin' according to the rules of its species--that'd be homo sapiens (Tho, I doan know about "sapiens" these days!).

At conception this heah is a wholly new person--one thas' never been before, and never will be again'....
it's genetics is distinct and thas' true at nano-moment of conception.

'Course, at three weeks it's got a heart beat--before it's mama and daddy hardly know its heah, it's heart--human heart--is beatin', an' at six weeks it has brain waves
--human patterned waves.

So, folks, let's get down hard wif this thang---let's jes' be brave enough to admit it ain't dead at conception, it ain't a kangaroo at conception, jes' waitin' for the magic moment to morph into a if it is a growing human at conception, with a human heartbeat at three weeks , and human brain at six weeks, why we wanna turn ourselves into philosphical pretzels to pretend it ain't human, or ain't alive?

Bird was the bravest--she done called it like it is: if it is alive, her body still trupms the baby's body. Well, now--that says it real plain.

Ensoulment is not measurable by science--for those that believes in souls. THose that beleives in souls know that the evidence of the life itself at conception is the desire of the Ensouler to ensoul His child.

But no need for us'uns to decide about ensoulment, since it would always be speculative,not scientific.

Now Contessa makes the sad point--innocent girls pay high prices for men gone amok...incest and rape is best handled by other menfolk. Uncle Aloysius says that when a few judges is raped, we will see some new perspective on the matter of rape.

You know, they was time, mah pets, when no real man would be seen in a barber chair next to a man guilty of incest...youse jes' didn't allow such a man to be welcomed in the town--when men set they own standards high they defends family and womenfolk by makin' clear that unmanly behavior carries high prices--even a horse-whippin in the not too distant past.

But still, ya'll, mostly the ladies, now---one bad act doan mean we have to follow it wif another. Rape rarely results in conception--when it does, love for the innocent baby is a great sacrifice, I realise this--but the hurtin' of others has to stop somehweres, doan it?

One more time, please let this ole' Aunty Belle stress, I ain't about judging nobody--I am about facing truth, and that includes the truth that some folks doan know the truth of this matter when they makes a decision. Legal doan make it right--never has; remember that cattle cars for jews was legal in Germany, and slavery was legal, indetured servants was legal...

Politics takes its shape and form from the demands of the grassroots people--ain't no trickle down morality, it's always bubble up immorality or morality that changes laws, chillen's.

Oh Bawgs, I should'na taken up too much of yore space --real sorry, honey. I'll be real real quiet now.

Pete Bogs said...

no problem, Aunt B... I don't think castigation is the right penalty for rape, though... nor is another similar-sounding word that involves, um, radical surgery...

you don't address birth control in your comments... it would stop A LOT of abortions... I know, abstinence is the best form, but look at what that got the Virgin Mary! and they killed her kid, on top of that...

we have had this abortion vs. birth control vs. abstinence discussion before though, you and I, in an earlier BogsBlog post...

Aunty Belle said...

ARRGH!!! OK, I ain't being real quiet, after all--saw these new posts while I was a typin' to clarify and add to mah original:

GIGGLES is mistaken--Church Fathers did not sanction abortion
--Christians were particularly distinct because they DID NOT abort--and earliest Fathers are recorded in the Didache (on the web) which forbids killing in the womb.

ARDLAIR said: "abortion will continue whatever the law says,"

Yeah puddin' and so will murder and theft and lying and every evil that grabs aholt of a human heart...but that means squat, doan it?

What matters is what we as a society CODIFY--ya see? Got any idea of what we will be Ardy if we legalize /codify murder of anybody we find irritatin' to our life's plans?

Mebbe we should codify embezzlement since folks is goin' do it anyway? The logic of "folks do it anyway" won't hold Ardlair. Oh, and Ardy, the Germans were "pragmatic" about their "problems" too. So youse worried about knittin' needles and
"bits of babies flushed down the pan."...Where' you been kinsman? Where do you THINK those bay bits is a goin now?? Millions of them? The point is to stop makin' babies into bits.

GO have a look at the art work at Study of Revenge for an enlightening
commentary, Ardy.

BIRD, beautiful creature, sentience cain't be the determiner either-that ain't nothin' but "might makes right"--we been theah already. A person in a coma is not sentient
--but they often recover though it can take longer than 9 months. And a g ift of life is a gift eve when it is made by a mama that is less than thrilled about her baby--in fact, I'd wager about half of us on this here blog was "unplanned" ( I was fer shur)but I'm real glad you all made it here!

Now BAWGS, sweet heart, you are on the right trail--the problem is not abortion--abortion is the proposed solution to a problem, but it makes its own problem as well. "unplanned" pregnancies ain't somethin' mysterious...we knows how that happens. It's undisciplined folks that cause unplanned pregnancies. Should our undisciplined behavior lead to killin' a wee one?

THE problem is mis-directed sex. Ok, no groanin' and moanin', chicks. This is the problem, ain't no way around that other than making more problems by legaizing killin' or RU 486.

BAWGS--it ain't politics that keeps Morning after pills off the OTC plan--two new deaths last week--I gots an idea, honey--let's have
RU 487, a night before pill for you fellas--and when it kills a few of our teen boys who are only lookin' for a fun time on prom night, well, let's see then if you like the idea of RU487 sold OTC to randy boys barely 17 years old.

The problem is you ain't gonna devise no plan to missuse sex that doan cause a worse problem.

News flash--sex is holy, it ain't an inalienable right for any and all, it ain't a substitute for the game blacked out on ESPN, it ain't a runner-up prize when youse been dumped. Now, lawdy, it is fer married folks who's got a commitment to love the babies that love makes.

Ok, I hear'ya laughin' and groanin', but ya'll knows it is so.

Now...fer real, I'ma zipping mah lip!

Pete Bogs said...

Aunt B - the deaths were from RU 486, the abortion pill... not to be confused with Plan B, which is a triple dose of birth control the morning after to prevent implantation(?)

Plan B isn't abortion, but some pharmacists think it is...

ffff said...

I don't find the idea of being a 'host' so distasteful. It is parasitic really. I find that amazing in itself. I agree with everything Bird and Ard say. It is a gift, it should be freely given, mistakes are made and abortion will take place anyway with or without white men's law. Hurray for the practical Sioux!!
All in all prevention is better so if you are going to outlaw abortion clinics then for heavens sake make condoms freely available ( I have always liked the idea of them dropping from the sky every Friday night, say) and contraception of all descriptions free and easily attainable.
Educate educate educate and then give open choice and THEN give alternatives when an oops happens.
Back to the old maxim:"Every baby a wanted baby".

BTW Pete, you have nice hands.(The one wrapped around the Guiness... is the other one the same?)

Pete Bogs said...

ali - you're right, it's a semantic thing calling a pregnant woman a host...

my other hand? well, have you ever seen Chris Elliot in Scary Movie 2?

it's nothing like his freaky hand, actually... I would say I am symmetrical, yes...

ardlair said...

So much anger Aunty Belle.
So much anger.

Zya said...

Oh dear.. I'm almost afraid to enter this debate.

Not because you all are scary (because you all are definately not) but because I am extremely divided on this topic and one minute I will say one thing.. and the next minute I'll say another!

I tried to write a post, and then I disagreed with it. Then i wrote another and disagreed again! so i give up. It is a REALLY tough debate.

Sorry I can't add anything constructive... my catholic parents and my open mind have made me very confused;p

Pete Bogs said...

zya - that must have been your deleted comment earlier... no worries... it is a tough subject...

Zya said...

nah, pete, its not my deleted comment!

I never pressed enter. do you think I have that kind of courage? hehe ;)

Bird said...

WARBING - I am taking a tone here.

misdirected sex? what does that mean? that i should only have sex when i'm willing to have that act culminate in a baby? damn - i guess i won't be getting any, now will i - i don't want babies anymore! and back in the day - i guess i should have only had sex twice in my life. what rubbish AB! you know, we still have a biolgoical instinct to fuck that is pretty dang hard to deny. - and i sure as heck would rather fuck than fight. it's a physiological need - just like the need for sleep and food.i freely admit that i love sex (have for quite a long time)and want it as often as possible, without any babies to complicate my life.

maybe i am UNDISCIPLINED.oooh, maybe since i am undisciplined i need punishment. but i have something different in mind than having a baby I don't want. oooh...i need a man to punish me theway i like. oooh..oh lover man, where are you? come punish me. i want to be a bad, undisciplined girl.

and don't forget -
accidents happen - even to those good, upright, disciplined folks. i think you are indeed judging AB.

sex is sacred? who said? is that a fact? that's a belief. sex is sex. though, yes, i think sex can be sacred, but not all sex is sacred. i've had my share of unsacred sex. i'll tell you, some of that unholy sex was just as good, in its way, as the sacred sex (yeah, i've had that too). let's raise a glass to sacred and unsacred sex - to making love and fucking.

deaths from RU486? yes, some sensationlized cases of deaths have been reported i hear. many folks die from automobile accidents? (far more than from taking RU486) but we still drive cars. some folks die on the surgical table - sometimes from seeminly simple and everyday operations - risks you know in everything- hmmm...we've had this conversaton before, haven't we?

do you know that there are babies who die from vaccinations - but we don't outlaw vaccinations, do we - because they serve a greater good. but docs do tell parents the risks (ever so minor really) of the various vaccinations.

oh, i weary of this argument back and forth, and back and forth, with someone trying to force what appears to be their spiritual belief on others - on me! i'm so upset now - i need a good dose of unholy sex to soothe me! so i'm off for a good fuck! ciao darlings (i do have my diaphram with me- man I hope it works - i ain't birthin' no babies no how at my age!)

Pete Bogs said...

bird - how I can top that??? ;-)

fatty ~ said...

wow! thats fantastic. Isn't it amazing the loophole that can be found =P

how ironic - i wonder if it would work in australia

Zya said...

I'm *from* Australia and I don't even know the answer to the following question..

Does Australia have areas like that for Aboriginals?

Aunty Belle said...

Oh tsk, tsk, Ardy, real nice try, but sugar, you ain't seen no foot-stompin', skirt-flappin' anger. You'll not mistake it when yer seein' it, I promise. But puddin' I didn't reckon youse so sensitive, so I'll bear it mind next time.

Bird Beauty, looky back over what I wrote--I didn't say nothin' about sex as ONLY for babies--silly, of course not--it is for jes' what we all know--the pleasure of the pair--husband and wife, that is. Sheer pleasure of it, much as you want, morning noon and night---even if yore mate is 100 years old and no babies on the horizon--thas' jes' fine.

Here's a riddle fer ya--which Pope said the husband had a DUTY to make sure he made his wife's pleasure a priority when makin' love?

So, lovely Bird, doubt that you meant to play bait and switch wif ole Aunty here--arguing against somethin' I never even said--no, you prolly jes' read mah remarks through the filter of current rhetoric, but I'm all in favor of sex for the sheer pleasure of it,provided the pair is married.

No traction wif that punishment theme either--any man gets "punishment" on his mind wif Aunty is headin' to parts unknown whar even the bloodhounds doan go. Punsishment Isn't in mah brain
--where'd that come from chile?

And Bird, jewel of the sky, RU486 is available--jes' not OTC, an' I doan think we want (or now sell) vaccinations over the counter either...mah point is due medical care. And pet, final thought, no body is tryin' to "force" anything on you...jes' offerin' ideas for thought, which youse free not to read or consider.

But blogs is part exchange of ideas, right? Every society that's free will have these debates. Where's any "force" or judgment in mah remarks, honey? That's an honest inquiry (not drenched in sarcasm, one thang bad bout blogs, ya' cain't hear tone of voice).

Pete Bogs said...

"Here's a riddle fer ya--which Pope said the husband had a DUTY to make sure he made his wife's pleasure a priority when makin' love?"

I'll field this one... I believe it was Pope Cunnilingus III... something Latin-sounding like that...

Zya said...

Speaking of no aboritions and abortions... have you seen this?!

NAPLES, Florida (AP) -- If Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan has his way, a new town being built in Florida will be governed according to strict Roman Catholic principles, with no place to get an abortion, pornography or birth control.

Zya said...

Sorry to spam, but let me try the html tags :P


Aunty Belle said...

Bawgs, yer seen that card with a shrouded figure? Looks like LOR reads vos can run , tamen vos can non velieris

presidentbobo said...

I think that the tribes should provide free abortions to Whites - equal to the number of their tribal members the Whites killed in the conquest of the Amreicas.
In the old days life was sacred...only if you are were White.

Bird said...

Ah Aunty Belle...

Not having access to abortion is punishment. Telling a woman she must nurture and care for and watch her body go through extreme changes for nine months,then labor and give birth to a baby she doesn't want - that is punishment. i loved both of my pregnancies, and the labor, and the birthing, and the babies I gave birth to - the children i raised. but i chose to make those babies, willingly and with great love. yet i can't imagine going through that by force. i can't imagine bestowing life only because i have no choice in the matter. that would take what was for me a powerful, moving, sacred time in my life and turn it into something - unholy, damned, shameful, abominable.

Sex only within marriage? I think not. I would not and did not marry just so I can have sex. and it's no one's business if i have sex before, during, or after marriage. again - this is a personal decision - you can think whatever you want, but thank goodness there's no law that says i can only have sex if i'm married. though i suspect some would like that to be so. why do i need the state or the church/synogogue/temple to sacntion my sexual activities? i don't. and they have nothing to do with it

Ah, only expressing your opinion - standing up for free exhange of ideas? That's fine. But many who think as you do want to take this choice away from me and force me to, if not believe as they do, act as they wish me to. if they don't watch out, i'll poke my middle finger in their eyes!(though i will try to contain myself).

you are kind and thoughtful in your dicussion, but you support laws that will force me to act in accordance with religious beliefs that are not my own. and you really don't, nor should, have the right to do that.

Jack K. said...

WOW!!!! Some fantastic responses. Some more fantasy than others.

You don't want babies? Don't have sex. Simple solution to a complex issue.

The human psyche doesn't operate that simply. The physical effects of neuro-chemicals can insist we do the things we are forbidden by law, mores, etc. To fuck or not to fuck is the question and it is usually answered by a roll in the hay.

Now the difficulty comes in when one of the parties doesn't want to particpate. This is a totally different issue. Under these circumstances it is no longer an issue of sex, it is an issue of power and control. We have laws that control this and they are quite adequate, I think.

My guess is, if we had less of a puritanical view of sex we would enjoy life more.

So I am a proponent of sex education that is clear, concise and may include practical exercises.

Just a thought.

ffff said...

I agree with everything bird has expoused. She has said it clearly with passion and with knowledge. Great stuff and the rest can go and get stuffed.

Ohhohh Ohh Jack said Fuck. Now That was erotic. Sweet, gentle, caring Jack in his wise years said fuck..ohhh!

ffff said...

BTW No. Aboriginal land in Australia does not allow for laws in direct opposition to White fella's law, but can include some cultural law...

I think.